Legislature(1997 - 1998)
02/13/1997 03:03 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE STANDING COMMITTEE ON HEALTH,
EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES
February 13, 1997
3:03 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
*HOUSE BILL NO. 45
"An Act relating to runaway and missing minors."
- MOVED CSHB 45(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 1
"An Act relating to taxes on cigarettes and tobacco products; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 1(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 54
"An Act establishing the Alaska education technology program; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 54(HES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 45
SHORT TITLE: RUNAWAY AND MISSING MINORS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) KELLY
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
01/13/97 39 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/3/97
01/13/97 39 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/13/97 39 (H) HES
02/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 1
SHORT TITLE: CIGARETTE AND TOBACCO TAX
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE,Ivan,Croft,Porter,Hudson
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
01/13/97 26 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/3/97
01/13/97 26 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/13/97 27 (H) STATE AFFAIRS, HES, FINANCE
01/21/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
01/21/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
01/28/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
01/28/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
01/30/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
01/30/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
02/04/97 (H) STA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 102
02/04/97 (H) MINUTE(STA)
02/05/97 237 (H) STA RPT CS(STA) 4DP 1DNP
02/05/97 237 (H) DP: JAMES, ELTON, BERKOWITZ, IVAN
02/05/97 237 (H) DNP: VEZEY
02/05/97 237 (H) FISCAL NOTE (STA CMTE/REV)
02/07/97 276 (H) COSPONSOR(S): HUDSON
02/11/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/11/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 54
SHORT TITLE: EDUCATION TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) KOTT,Grussendorf,Kemplen
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION date."
01/13/97 42 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 1/10/97
01/13/97 42 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
01/13/97 42 (H) HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
01/30/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
01/30/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
01/31/97 206 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KEMPLEN
02/05/97 (H) HES AT 4:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/05/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/07/97 (H) HES AT 4:00 PM CAPITOL 120
02/07/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/11/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/11/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
02/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KELLY
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 411
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-2327
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 45
SCOTT CALDER
P.O. Box 75011
Fairbanks, Alaska 99707
Telephone: (907) 474-0174
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 45 and testified
against CSHB 1(STA)
AL NEAR
P.O. Box 80847
Fairbanks, Alaska 99708
Telephone: (907) 479-4090
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 45
STEVE GRUNSTEIN, Representing
Guardians of Family Justice
P.O. Box 32604
Juneau, Alaska 99803
Telephone: (907) 789-7131
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 45
ANGELA SALERNO, Executive Director
National Association of Social Workers, Alaska Chapter
525 Main Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-4438
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 45
CAM CARLSON
P.O. Box 80234
College, Alaska 99708
Telephone: (907) 479-2348
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 45
DAVE PETERS
P.O. Box 2774
Valdez, Alaska 99686
Telephone: (907) 835-2254
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against CSHB 1(STA)
MARLENE LEAK
771 Eighth Avenue
Fairbanks, Alaska 99701
Telephone: (907) 452-1015
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against CSHB 1(STA)
BETTY ROLLINS
P.O. Box 55163
North Pole, Alaska 99705
Telephone: (907) 488-6614
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against CSHB 1(STA)
DOUG YATES
P.O. Box 221
Ester, Alaska 99725
Telephone: (907) 479-8300
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 1(STA)
DON DAPCEVICH, Executive Director
Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
P.O. Box 0608
Juneau, Alaska 99811
Telephone: (907) 465-4667
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 1(STA)
JACK CHENOWETH, Attorney
Legislative Legal Counsel
Legislative Affairs Agency
130 Seward Street, Suite 409
Juneau, Alaska 99801-2105
Telephone: (907) 465-2450
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 1(STA)
BOB BARTHOLOMEW, Deputy Director
Income and Excise Audit Division
Department of Revenue
P.O. Box 110420
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0420
Telephone: (907) 465-2320
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 54(HES)
GEORGE SMITH, Deputy Director
Libraries, Archives and Museums
Department of Education
P.O. Box 110571
Juneau, Alaska 99811-0571
Telephone: (907) 465-2910
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 54(HES)
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 204
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3777
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 54
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-10, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Committee meeting to order at 3:03 p.m. Members present
at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Porter, Dyson, and
Kemplen. Representative Brice arrived at 3:11 p.m., Representative
Vezey arrived at 3:17 p.m. and Representative Green arrived at 3:52
p.m. This meeting was teleconferenced to Valdez and Fairbanks.
HB 45 - RUNAWAY AND MISSING MINORS
Number 0047
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KELLY, sponsor of HB 45, "An Act relating to
runaway and missing minors." was first to testify. He said HB 45
provides a technical correction to an error which occurred when his
comprehensive rewrite of the juvenile code was combined with
Senator Steve Frank's legislation on runaways. When the two bills
were combined after the legislative session, a core piece of
Senator Frank's legislation was lost and the revisor of the bills
needs legislation to fix the problem.
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said HB 45 returns to a parent or guardian the
decision to allow an unemancipated minor to remain on the streets
or to require the minor to return home. A runaway minor should not
have the right of refusal as to where the minor should live, this
decision should lie with the minor's parent, legal guardian or in
remote cases with a peace officer.
Number 0121
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY referred to the bill, page 1, line 11, and
read, "where the minor was found and if the minor and the minor's
parent or guardian consent". He said that "minor" was left in when
the two bills were combined. He stated again that it was just a
technical glitch and said he doesn't understand all the workings of
the revisor of statutes but clarified that it certainly wasn't
their intent last year to leave that section in there. He said
Senator Frank's bill, SB 289, was voted on and passed near
unanimously last year. He said HB 45 will bring us back to the
original intent.
Number 0194
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON asked if provision (c), page 2, provided
an option of the minor being taken to a secure facility.
Number 0242
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said the minor can be taken to a semi-secure
facility.
Number 0246
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if the minor still has the option to
leave if the minor chooses to do so.
Number 0254
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said according to the original bill, SB 289,
when the minor left the semi-secure facility he became a Child in
Need of Aid (CINA). He said it corrected a lot of problems with
minors being able to leave a facility with complete impunity. When
the minor became a CINA, the state could take further action,
whereas before there was nothing in statute to address this issue.
Number 0297
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if HB 45 could be amended so that it
compels the state to take further action if the minor leaves the
facility where they have been deposited.
Number 0316
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said this was addressed in SB 289, the state
was compelled to take further action.
Number 0332
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said in HB 45 they are taken to a semi-secure
facility and if the minor leaves, then they fall under provisions
of the previous bill, SB 289, which says they are now a CINA and
then those provisions would kick in. The minor would be picked up
as a CINA and are no longer allowed the flexibility that they are
allowed under this bill.
Number 0359
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said it appeared that Representative Dyson was
proposing something other than the intent of the legislation that
HB 45 attempts to fix. He said it was just a mistake on the
revisor and we want to go back to what the intent was. He said he
would buy into some of the suggestions, but he thought they would
be more appropriate in a different bill. He said there is a time
problem on HB 45 because the statutes won't agree. When the
department deals with this now, they worry about legal problems.
People are interpreting the statutes differently because it says
two things in the statutes. He said HB 45 is a housekeeping bill
and said Representative Dyson is talking more about an intent that
was already addressed in SB 289.
Number 0421
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he understood that HB 45 is making a
correction to the original intent. He said he is absolutely
confused between what Representative Kelly and Representative Bunde
said about whether or not the child has a chance to get out of the
parent's and the state's jurisdiction if they choose to run away.
He said he would pursue this in a different place and away from
this committee.
Number 0443
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if a minor runs again after being put in a
semi-secure facility, they are then picked up and treated under SB
289 which then puts them under the category of CINA and then the
minor is no longer allowed to run again. He said the minor can
then go to a secure facility.
Number 0480
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said, "it doesn't necessarily follow, what you
were saying is correct, it doesn't necessarily follow that they
would go to a secure facility. It does necessarily follow that
they would become a matter for the court."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE added, "if it is appropriate."
Number 0504
SCOTT CALDER testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. He
said HB 45 makes sense. He said, "It seems odd that in the process
of correcting problems with the state's juvenile social service
industry that we would omit to correct the problem of asking for
the minor's permission to return home." He said this harkens back
to the old days when there were problems in that regard. He
referred to the other issue raised about what will happen when the
minor returns or if the minor runs again and added that there are
probably miles to go before we succeed in correcting those problems
in the system. He said it would probably be a good idea to keep
this one aspect fairly simple.
Number 0579
AL NEAR testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. He said
he also favored HB 45 and it should pass as it corrects a little
technical error. He said he wanted to make some comments about
secure placement because he did not feel the existing laws provide
for this possibility. He commented that despite our best efforts
this runaway youth problem continues to plague the state.
Responsible parents are trying to instill traditional values, but
they encounter legal roadblocks. If a kid chooses to leave home as
a runaway, there is little a parent can do and kids know this. He
said laws are designed to protect abused and neglected children,
but rebellious kids exploit these laws.
MR. NEAR said that young people, who at an earlier time would have
been held accountable for these misdeeds, can now exercise adult
freedoms unencumbered by responsibility. Alaska needs the option
of secure treatment facilities. At present families have few
choices and some families are sending their children to programs
outside the state. He said this situation could have occurred
because of mandates, from federal legislation occurring in the
1970s, requiring least restrictive settings. He said we assume
that some kids running away are fleeing abusive homes. In some
cases this is true, but it overlooks the merely rebellious kids who
would exploit these laws and manipulate the system. Kids who know
the law enforcement agencies don't aggressively pursue them as
runaways. He urged the legislature and the Administration to
consider lifting this ban against secure placement for habitual
runaways.
Number 0755
STEVE GRUNSTEIN, Representative, Guardians of Family Justice an
organization out of North Pole, said he supports the change
proposed in HB 45. As a father of a teenage son here in Juneau a
few years ago, he experienced the amalgamation of laws concerning
juveniles. The current laws that have been on the books for the
past number of years are non-functional. If we are serious about
dealing with this juvenile problem, making some headway with it and
stopping situations like people being shot at in Lemon Creek. He
said we all know juveniles are putting gangs together left and
right around the state. He said it all falls back to the early
laws of the 1970s, the federal mandates, "you will not restrict
your child." He supports HB 45's provision that the juvenile in
question should not have the authority to veto or over-ride his
parent's decision.
MR. GRUNSTEIN said his organization supports the change proposed in
HB 45. It is a technical, typographical error and because of it
juveniles are given extreme authority over the parents. This is
frustrating to the parents and everyone else. He said if a child
goes out and does something wrong the state tends to come down on
the parents, asking them why they aren't controlling their child.
If any of the committee has had children out of control and had to
face the law like a brick wall, you would know what it's like.
MR. GRUNSTEIN said federal funding keeps the state from having
secured environments for these children and said they can keep
their federal funding. He said parents want to have control and
authority over raising their children without living in fear of the
Gestapo. He said when you run into the Division of Family and
Youth Services (DFYS) where they suspect you have abused your child
because you grounded him, you are dealing with something similar to
the Gestapo the way you can be treated.
Number 0893
ANGELA SALERNO, Executive Director, National Association of Social
Workers, Alaska Chapter, said she is here as an advocate for
vulnerable groups. She said she understood the history of HB 45
and what has been done or what has been attempted to be done around
successfully addressing the problem issue of runaway youth. She
said she was here specifically to speak to the issue of sexual and
physical abuse of youth in the home. Her concern is that the
provisions of HB 45 might increase the incidence of sexual,
physical and emotional abuse in the home. This measure proposed in
HB 45 would require a police officer to forcibly return a youth to
his or her home against their will, without their consent. She
said they may be returned to a home that is unsafe.
MS. SALERNO said concerned parents, engaged parents do feel out of
control. She said their testimony and their involvement shows
their concern. She said she is more concerned about those families
in which the parents are not engaged, in which the parents are
abusive. She said she is fearful that we could increase the
incidence of abuse and (indisc.) severe or fatal injuries to
children. This bill's exception to forcible return when the
officer might have reasonable cause to believe that there is sexual
abuse does not take into account the fact that police officers are
not trained to access sexual abuse and must rely on reports from
the youth. She did not feel that all youth will be able to reveal
abuse to a police officer or to anyone they have just met,
especially an authority figure. She said this was a concern of
hers.
MS. SALERNO said forcing runaway youth to return home is not going
to get the state where we want to go with this. She expressed
concern that it will not deter youth from running away, it could
drive them underground where we would be unable to help them. Life
on the street is not fun and she said kids are not running away
just for the fun of it. Most kids who run away probably have good
reason to do it.
MS. SALERNO said, in Alaska, 1,900 adolescents are homeless
annually. In HB 45, the parent can consent to not having their
child brought home which brings up concerns about what we are
calling "throw away youth". She thought that if more options, more
resources or more services were made available to youth the great
majority of runaway youth would access them. She said she is
talking specifically about such things as independent living and
transitional living programs. Education, job training, counseling
and other things that would help these minors become self-
sustaining. What we all want is responsible youth. We need to
help them learn and obtain those skills that can make them more
responsible.
Number 1082
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said in the political subdivision where he
lives all the police officers have pretty good training in these
areas. He suspected that this training was pretty good all the way
around the state. He said any child who is abused, or even wants
to abuse the process by accusing his parents of abusing him, only
has to pick up the phone and call. There are a number of agencies
including the 911 service which can be called. He said he was
almost shocked by her accusation that HB 45 is going to increase
the number of abused children and make life worse for them.
Number 1120
MS. SALERNO said the assessment of sexual abuse victims is
controversial, even in social work. Some feel that even social
workers aren't equipped to assess these situations. She apologized
for not knowing what training police officers get, she is relying
on her knowledge of the specialized training that social workers
get about sexual abuse.
MS. SALERNO said there is a problem with some youth, who
erroneously accuse their parents of sexual abuse. She said she is
sure it happens in an attempt to manipulate the system, but
clarified that she is talking about the kid who has been abused,
intimidated and in a diminished capacity to advocate for
themselves.
Number 1178
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he never meant to suggest that police
officers are capable of doing an assessment on sexual abuse
victims. He said the officers are qualified to make at least a
preliminary judgement about whether or not there is a possibility
that the child is in danger and then refer it to another agency
where there is an escalating level of training and capacity to do
an assessment.
Number 1200
CAM CARLSON testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. She
said she was absolutely in favor of the amendment to this piece of
legislation and added that minors are not in the position to make
this decision. She said she is thankful that social workers were
not around when she was growing up because it could have really
screwed her up. She said, as a headstrong kid, she would have used
the system like kids are using it now. She is glad her parents
were there and were telling her what was what.
MS. CARLSON said she became involved in this issue as a result of
knowing friends and neighbors, who had been destroyed by the
system. She said letting a minor decide what is good, what is best
and where he is going to live is ludicrous. She said there are
rules and laws that provide for children who are sexually or
physically abused. She said she would not have put up with the
kinds of things her friends and neighbors put up with in trying to
raise their kids and the interference that the state put in their
way. She strongly encouraged the committee to pass HB 45 and take
away "minor choice."
Number 1294
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER said it wasn't Senator Frank's bill
that made this specific change, it was a bill sponsored the year
before, in 1994, by Senator Phillips that came to the House
Judiciary Standing Committee. He said the judiciary committee put
this provision into Senator Phillip's bill as a result of the kinds
of problems that you have heard about today. He questioned how
this language remained in statute as it was changed in 1994. He
said police officers do get very good training in making initial
evaluations as to whether a child has been abused or is the subject
of abuse. He said there are literally scores of children who are
manipulating the system with this "blackjack" that they have over
parents to be able to say, "I get my way or I don't come home." He
said this intimidation should not be allowed. He thought this
issue was corrected in 1994.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said the last juvenile runaway case that he
remembered handling, as a police officer, was a 16-year-old girl
who ran away from home because her mother wouldn't let her smoke
and the teenager wasn't going to return until her mother let her
smoke. He offered that this is the more typical case than the
abused case.
Number 1383
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to move proposed Amendment 1 to
HB 45. Hearing no objection it was adopted.
Number 1396
REPRESENTATIVE KELLY said Amendment 1 sets an effective date. He
said because this issue was supposed to be addressed in 1994 and
survived 1996, they are worried about the backlog.
Number 1405
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY made a motion to move CSHB 45(HES).
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, CSHB
45(HES) was moved out of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee with individual recommendations and
attached zero fiscal notes.
HB - 1 CIGARETTE AND TOBACCO TAX
Number 1486
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that the next item on the agenda was CSHB
1(HES), "An Act relating to taxes on cigarettes and tobacco
products; and providing for an effective date."
Number 1489
DAVE PETERS testified next via teleconference from Valdez. He said
he was against CSHB 1(STA) as he did not see how raising the taxes
on cigarettes was going to keep kids from smoking. He said it
would just make them be able to steal cigarettes a little easier.
He said maybe if a tax was imposed on alcohol, or a tax to boost
the situation where people get fined for selling kids the
cigarettes, would work. He said kids will still have the access,
they will just steal more from their parents. He said CSHB 1(STA)
will hurt him as he is a smoker.
Number 1590
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the evidence supporting the increase in
tobacco costs with a drop in underage smoking. He also cited the
costs to the state because of tobacco related illnesses.
MARLENE LEAK testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. She
said state government wants more money and is using pious
platitudes that the solution to any problem is more tax money. She
went on to say that some health related non-profit organizations
have found that being anti-tobacco is a veritable gold mine in
contributions and government grants. These organizations, for
public relations purposes, need a little moral victory for their
cause, without threatening a ban on tobacco, and the tax increase
does look good there.
MS. LEAK asked the committee to recall that the March of Dimes was
almost wiped out when Dr. Salk discovered a vaccine for polio, but
with quick thinking a new cause was picked. The cause they chose
was birth defects which has a myriad of causes and is unlikely to
be cured. She asked if tobacco would be as easy to replace. She
said non-profit organizations, profiting from tobacco, can't take
that chance.
MS. LEAK said about a year ago, a front page article in the Wall
Street Journal detailed how a massive increase in tobacco tax in
Canada began a giant black market for cigarettes. Later in 1996,
Canada lowered the tobacco tax. A federal luxury tax increase was
reversed a few years ago due to a loss of ship building jobs when
sales of yachts went overseas or to the used yacht market. As the
Boston Tea Party showed, the public will not respect a greedy,
arrogant government. Even when we get sanctimonious sermons that
it is worth the tax to discourage teenagers from smoking.
MS. LEAK said if the correlation studies which tell us that tobacco
kills several hundred thousand U.S. citizens per year were true, it
would be murder for the legislature to leave this substance legal.
Assuming that you believe the numbers to be true, the tax would be
blood money for the state. She suggested that states, such as
Alaska, might be sued by victim's families who might claim that the
state knew that tobacco was a killer, but was left legal for short
term tax increase gain. She asked if this showed compassion on
behalf of the legislators. She asked the legislators to admit that
they want more tax money and that they would do and say anything to
get it. She said she is against CSHB 1(STA).
Number 1745
BETTY ROLLINS testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks.
She said she is a non-smoker, but CSHB 1(STA) allows the state to
hide behind the bad guy. We have 3,000 contaminated sites in the
state of Alaska, and many contaminated sites in the NorthStar
Borough. She said there has been no action by the legislature or
by any government entity to assist with this problem.
MS. ROLLINS said she talked with the Michigan DOR where bootlegging
is a very serious problem. She said the state of Michigan raised
their tax 200 percent, but only received 28 percent in additional
tax revenues from the tobacco tax. She asked Mr. Vesley [Ph] of
DHSS if he had any statistics on any of the programs designed to
discourage underage smoking, how many children did not smoke
because of those programs. She was told that DHSS did not have the
ability to go out and find these figures. She was faxed a 2-year-
old supposition by DHSS to tell people that a tax increase will
stop teen smoking. She said it is the same supposition that is
being used today.
MS. ROLLINS said she has a letter from the Department of Public
Health signed by state troopers and the Michigan Department of
Public Health. The letter says that even though they are getting
more money in tobacco tax, it will start interfering with the
private lives of people. Highly trained officers are following up
on tests and making arrests when illegal activity occurs such as
when people cross state borders to buy two or three cartons of
cigarettes. She said there is a special force to take care of this
in Michigan. She asked if we wanted to do this in Alaska.
Number 1848
DOUG YATES testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. He
said the tobacco industry is big business, spending billions to
advertise their products. He said most of that advertising money
is used to convince children that the glamour of using their
products outweighs long term health consequences. As a result of
the industry's power and their vested interest, tobacco will never
be outlawed. Society will never place it in the same arena as
marijuana, it is too strongly established as part of this culture's
accepted addictions. The only avenue to free thinking men and
women who recognize its cost to our people is to employ a level of
taxation that begins to address these costs.
MR. YATES said he was astounded that there was so much opposition
to this measure since Republicans pride themselves on fiscal
responsibility. He asked what better way to ease the financial
burden of raising a family in Alaska then to reduce the cost of
health care. According to reliable estimates, significant money
can be saved if we work to eliminate health care costs associated
with tobacco addiction. He said the tobacco industry relishes the
ideological morass spawned by the issue of taxation. In each state
where taxation is an issue, there are guys who stand and point at
tax proponents. He urged all legislators to set aside ideological
differences and realize that increased taxation will begin to tilt
the scales for the long term advantage of the state.
Number 1938
SCOTT CALDER testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. He
wanted to reflect on the assertion that is being made that the
reason to tax tobacco is to prevent children from smoking, or to
deter children from smoking. In connection with his experiences
with the state's juvenile authorities, he wanted to tell the
committee why this is a false perspective. He said we want to tax
tobacco so that we can pay for government. He said the state of
Alaska pays specialized foster parents $90 a day and that the
foster parent who took care of his son was buying cigarettes for
his son. He questioned why the legislature was raising taxes and
accruing more funds to pay for services for which there is no
oversight or recourse to a parent like himself, who is faced with
a specialized foster parent providing cigarettes to his child. He
said he did not want any more taxes or any more liabilities to the
people in the state of Alaska until those problems are corrected.
He suggested that every man, woman and child in the state of Alaska
would be better off if they smoked a pack a day than if they had to
put up with that type of government.
Number 2066
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there is no indication that any monies raised
from this tobacco tax would go to the Division of Family and Youth
Services (DFYS). He said CSHB 1(STA) dedicates the money to a
school construction fund. His other point was that a vast majority
of people in the state of Alaska asked the legislature to address
this issue. He referred to a letter by the Federation of
Independent Businesses which had 62 percent of their members in
favor of supporting this tax. He said this is not some plot from
government, it is simply government responding to the requests of
their constituents.
Number 2097
CAM CARLSON testified next via teleconference from Fairbanks. She
said she is a non-smoker, but is adamantly opposed to the tobacco
tax. The purpose of taxes is not social, behavior modification or
social engineering and added that it is being used as an excuse for
increased revenues. She said saying the money will be used for
schools is just kind of facetious and added that if we think so
little of schools that the only way we can get money for them is to
tax and bite, then it is a pretty sad state of affairs. She
referred to the previous testimony regarding foster parents letting
kids smoke and the problems that need to be corrected in this area.
Number 2149
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if CSHB 1(STA) works and is a barrier, then
these children won't begin to smoke and maybe that will solve that
problem. He said this is a totally voluntary tax, no one has to
pay this tax. They simply don't smoke and they won't pay for the
tax. He reminded those people concerned over taxation that smokers
cost the state of Alaska nearly $200 million a year. He asked if
those people would rather pay an income tax to take care of those
expenses or if they think a user fee is more appropriate.
TAPE 97-10, SIDE B
Number 0000
DON DAPCEVICH, Executive Director, Advisory Board on Alcoholism and
Drug Abuse, said the legislative committee spent the major part of
this morning meeting telephonically to speak about the tobacco tax.
He said they wanted him to convey to the committee that those
members from Fort Yukon, Palmer, Fairbanks, Anchorage and Ketchikan
have gone into their communities and talked with people and have
made up their minds that they want to support this initiative. He
said they want to congratulate the committee on bringing it
forward. He said the committee hopes the state doesn't collect a
dime on these taxes, they would prefer that people not smoke.
MR. DAPCEVICH said there is no question that cigarettes are a
gateway drug. He said this does not suggest that there is a causal
relationship between smoking tobacco and smoking marijuana or using
heroin, but it is well established that tobacco is certainly a
gateway drug. He said it is also well established that as price
goes up, use goes down especially among the most price sensitive
group which is youth. He said his committee urged the legislature
to pass CSHB 1(STA) with one cautionary note. He said they felt
that education efforts, for tobacco and other drugs, should be
redoubled in the schools. He said, as price goes up and
accessibility goes down, we need to make some measures for smoking
cessation programs for youth and adults. He said CSHB 1(STA) will
improve the health of people in the state and only requires that
users of tobacco pay the tax.
Number 0163
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to move proposed Amendment 1 to
CSHB 1(STA).
Number 0182
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY objected to the motion.
Number 0187
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the purpose of proposed Amendment 1 is to
discourage prolonged litigation. He said HB 1, as amended,
contains the dedication to the school fund and there is a
severability clause in the bill that said if there were litigation
that found this dedication to be unconstitutional, then the money
would go into the general fund. He said the proposed Amendment 1
is a provision to discourage prolonged litigation which might be
filed in hopes of tying this issue up for a number of years before
the tax becomes effective.
Number 0239
JACK CHENOWETH, Attorney, Legislative Legal Counsel, Legislative
Legal and Research Services, Legislative Affairs Agency, clarified
that the proposed Amendment 1 was E.2. He said, "E.2 as I
understand it is in response to an Assistant Attorney General's
concern that because the main bill, the increase in the taxes in
the main bill are set to take effect October 1, 1997, that there
needs to be a retroactive feature for the provisions in the bill
that deal with .090 and .190(a), .090(a) in Section 2 and .190(a)
in Section 4 and a means by which the levy, the amount raised by
the levy, by the increased levy is directed properly for the
cigarettes that are sold after October 1. I think it has to do
with the concern that there be some mechanism in place to protect
the state, the school fund in the event there is protracted
litigation and some means by which the revenue can be accounted for
and followed through in the event litigation eventually works out
to be contrary to the position that this money go into the, into
the school fund."
Number 0354
A roll call vote was taken on the proposed Amendment 1.
Representatives Bunde, Porter, Brice, Kemplen and Dyson voted yea.
Representative Vezey voted nay. Representative Green was absent
for the vote. Amendment 1 was adopted to CSHB 1(HES).
CHAIRMAN BUNDE called for an at ease at 3:53 p.m. The committee
meeting resumed at 3:54 p.m.
Number 0415
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER made a motion to move CSHB 1(HES) with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal notes.
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY objected to the motion.
A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 1(HES). Representatives Bunde,
Dyson, Kemplen, Brice, Green and Porter voted yea. Representative
Vezey voted nay. CHAIRMAN BUNDE declared that CSHB 1(HES) was
moved from the House Health, Education and Social Services Standing
Committee with individual recommendations and attached fiscal
notes.
HB - 54 EDUCATION TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM
Number 0523
BOB BARTHOLOMEW, Deputy Director, Income and Excise Audit Division,
Department of Revenue, said DOR would provide a fiscal note for
CSHB 54(HES) after today's meeting. He said there is not currently
an official fiscal note, but one could be generated to go with CSHB
54(HES).
Number 0591
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there is some concern about the size of the
fiscal note and asked if this project could be launched without a
fiscal note. He said CSHB 54(HES) is asking folks in the
community, businesses, to basically set up this technology grant
and asked if the effort could go forward without state seed money.
Number 0613
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said the fiscal note he is referring to would be
the loss of revenue from the tax deduction which is around
$114,000. As far as the cost of the staff positions, the
Department of Education could provide an answer to that suggestion.
Number 0636
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said there was a question regarding the
subcommittee report and the chart that the DOR provided.
Number 0658
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said DOR tried to look at what happened in other
tax credits which provide more of an incentive to give than just
allowing a business deduction. Two scenarios were provided that
were pretty close to a linear relationship. He said the lower
option scenario is more realistic. He said you could try to guess
the risk of a higher one based on your perceived conception of
private business support. He said there is a growing competition
for private companies to contribute to various charitable
organizations and funds.
Number 0699
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he had trouble understanding the table.
He said he accepted the assumptions from DOR. He said if you look
at the first table, the deductions for corporations with $100,000
or more in the state of Alaska corporate income tax liability,
there are 15 taxpayers in that category. If those taxpayers
participated in this fund, he believed that the statute limited the
contribution to a $100,000 deduction for this corporation. He
asked for verification that at 9.5 percent of 15 taxpayers owing
$100,000 equals $141,000 in lost tax revenue.
Number 0742
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said this was correct.
Number 0743
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said we are saying for $220,000 of potential
tax savings, we can get the corporate tax payers in the state to
contribute $3.7 million.
Number 0759
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said these are the assumptions based in Scenario A.
Number 0775
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked why we need CSHB 54(HES). He said this
fund can be done under existing law.
Number 0780
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said, under existing law, you are allowed to take
a limited deduction for charitable contributions but he did not
think that schools qualified as a 501-C(3), which is what allows
you to deduct contributions from your taxes. He said CSHB 54(HES)
amends the Alaska tax statutes to allow a general business
deduction.
Number 0801
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said his opinion differed. He said an
educational organization is capable of getting a 501-C(3) tax, it
is one of the functions, educational purposes, that is recognized
by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). He said there are limits on
the amount of charitable contributions that a corporation can make,
they are fairly generous based on gross earnings not on tax
liability. He said the main factor here is that the biggest credit
is the federal income tax. He said any entity, including the state
of Alaska if we pass CSHB 54(HES), would still have to address it
on their income tax and get recognized by the IRS. He said any
entity that we set up would still have to apply for the 501-C(3)
status, you do not need to pass a statute to create a 501-C(3)
corporation. He asked what the committee was doing, other than
creating a new bureaucracy.
Number 0872
MR. BARTHOLOMEW said he could not say today whether schools can
apply and become a 501-C(3), but it makes sense within the
guidelines. He said there are limitations that apply to how much
of a charitable contribution you can deduct. He said it was
correct that if CSHB 54(HES) passed and a business gave a
contribution to the technology fund, they would get a general
business deduction for state tax purposes which would not be
deductible on their federal income tax unless you went through the
route and became a recognized 501-C(3) corporation which would
subject you to limitations. He said it is strictly a state tax
code amendment.
Number 0925
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said if we create this new bureaucracy is it
their intent to go out and get qualified as a 501-C(3) corporation
or association.
Number 0944
GEORGE SMITH, Deputy Director, Libraries, Archives and Museums,
Department of Education (DOE), referred to the fiscal note
submitted by the DOE which was originally zero. He said it was
assumed that, at least initially, there would not be a large amount
of money in the program and that his division could handle training
in the public library and the school libraries with the existing
library development staff. He said he had a note that said, if the
fund received a large grant or an endowment, a staff would need to
be hired for additional training. He said you cannot put computers
and technology into small communities and expect them to bring it
up and know how to use it without some good training.
MR. SMITH said the initial fiscal note, in one of the other
divisions, Teaching and Learning Support, was that there would be
a need for staffing to handle this fund. He said if the provision
were made that some of the endowment money could be used for
training purposes to hire a staff, then a zero fiscal note could be
submitted. He clarified that this issue was discussed in the
subcommittee meeting. He said his division, Libraries, Archives
and Museums could handle their fiscal note in the same way. If
that provision were included in CSHB 54(HES), the libraries
division would not need a fiscal note.
Number 1032
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that Mr. Smith was referring to the DOE
fiscal note, the $121,000.
MR. SMITH said, "yes, actually for both of us. With that provision
both of us could handle it and I discussed that issue with the
other division."
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said if it doesn't work, you won't take any money
but if it does work you may need it.
MR. SMITH said, even if there were small amounts of money, his
division could handle it with existing staff.
Number 1055
REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT, sponsor of HB 54, said he did not feel
that CSHB 54(HES) would create a growing bureaucracy. He said, as
indicated, there might be one or two individuals put on staff to
allocate the grants, monies to the individual school districts and
libraries. The staff will be responsible for insuring that the
requirements for the application are met. He said he did not think
that a great bureaucracy would be growing here.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said, currently, the DOE has a $1 million
grant. He said there is a provision in that federal grant that
gives them up to 5 percent for administrative costs. He said
passage of CSHB 54(HES) will assist in the state's ability to
obtain future grants by getting a program that shows that the state
is interested and committed to providing education technology. He
said it is his understanding after talking to potential recipients
of grants that one of the first questions asked is what the state's
interest is and what is their level of commitment. He said having
this structure in place sends a message out there. He said the
U.S. Office of Education has an annual challenge grant that is
available and said the state of Alaska has not received it for
three years because we don't have the interest or intent out there.
He said this fund would resolve that particular issue.
Number 1154
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if CSHB 54(HES) gave DOE the ability to
utilize the fund for necessary training or would that have to be
something that would be added.
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said he believed that the subcommittee
addressed this issue.
Number 1173
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said the subcommittee actually found two
references; an early reference was of the opinion that no you
couldn't and then later there was a legal reference that said yes
you can. Ms. Cook said as long as you don't preclude it within the
bill itself stating that it cannot be used, then it can be used.
Number 1195
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said the chairman of the committee that has
the bill, by the executive branch's policy, is the one who has to
order the fiscal notes. He would suggest that if it is the intent
to move CSHB 54(HES) today, we move it with a qualification on the
fiscal notes, that the chairman be allowed to get fiscal notes from
the department reflecting (indisc.--coughing) testimony we've heard
which he thought would then be a zero fiscal note for the DOE.
Number 1220
REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN said the possibility of allowing
community centers, recreational centers to receive or apply for
these grants from the education technology fund was discussed at
the subcommittee meeting. He asked if there was a discussion with
the federal government about this possibility.
Number 1248
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said no, not to that particular issue. Some of
these grants do come with strings attached and would prohibit the
money from being allocated down to community centers. He said,
after giving it some additional thought, it was his opinion that
this particular area of appropriating, allocating grant money goes
beyond the scope of his intent in CSHB 54(HES).
Number 1278
CHAIRMAN BUNDE called an at ease at 4:13 p.m. and the committee
meeting resumed at 4:14 p.m. He said he is hesitant to pass CSHB
54(HES) with a fiscal note that is inaccurate. He asked Mr. Smith
if he could provide a fiscal note that would be a zero fiscal note.
Number 1294
MR. SMITH said his division's fiscal note was zero. He said the
other division's fiscal note, the Division of Teaching and Learning
Support was originally $120,000. He has discussed this issue with
the director of the division. He said as long as DOE knows that
administrative costs can come out of the grant or endowment, they
could provide a zero fiscal note.
Number 1327
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it is the chair's intent to write a zero fiscal
note for the Department of Education including the Division of
Teaching and Learning Support and the Division of Libraries,
Archives and Museums.
Number 1332
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE made a motion to move CSHB 54(HES) with
attached zero fiscal note or fiscal note as corrected by this
committee.
Number 1340
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY objected to the motion. He said his objection
is no comment on the role of technology in our society and in our
educational process. He said he has some interest in
organizational structure, particularly in business organization,
and said he believes that we are going, completely, in the wrong
direction. He said the state of Alaska and the United States
government have spent considerable time and effort, over the last
200 years in the case of the federal government, creating
institutions that can provide public service. He said by trying to
create an organization within the state of Alaska, we are creating
a government entity that can do, with all the efficiency of
government, that which can be currently be done under our non-
profit corporation statutes. He said we recognize that our civic
organizations provide the community greater efficiency. He said he
did not feel that the organization of this fund has been thought
out. He said he could not help but think that the idea is to
create a bureaucracy that can request more funding.
Number 1418
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he did not disagree with a lot of what
Representative Vezey said. He said he was particularly encouraged
by hearing the DOE's comments that if it was necessary to increase
the volume of personnel needed to implement, not maintain, they
would contract for those kinds of services. He said he would not
support CSHB 54(HES) thinking that we would be adding permanent,
long-term state employees. He said if it turns out that a year or
two down the road that is the case, then he would hope it would be
revisited.
Number 1446
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said he felt that making technology available
in the education process was inordinately important, but the other
problem with the issue is the idea that government can come from
the people in the sense of being supported by it, such as trust
funds. He said he has a problem with trust funds on the government
side of it. He said he would pass CSHB 54(HES) out and would spend
time weighing the issues before it was voted on the House floor.
A roll call vote was taken on CSHB 54(HES). Representatives Bunde,
Green, Porter, Brice, Kemplen and Dyson voted yea. Representative
Vezey voted nay. CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that CSHB 54(HES) was
moved with zero fiscal notes from the House Health, Education and
Social Services Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 4:17 p.m.
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